Maximal Physiology
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I didn't have any idea there where those many beast wars related products....OMG! I remeber i used to have that panther thingy form mcdonals; I'm also cheking the Rattrap models. They al seems to be way to simmilarAlak wrote:You can check every toy's stats at www.tfu.info which is a really helpful database! Maybe I'm just biased towards the season 1 Optimus' appearance, but I always viewed him as the most offensively capable version.
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Blazemane
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O.k. here's something. And in advance, I would like to assure everyone that I am not crazy.
I'm no*t*.
Me and one of my brothers were watching "Double Dinobot" yesterday, and when Dinobot reveals that he has eaten his clone, my brother got somewhat confused.
So, my first reaction was, well, Dinobot is supposed to be a velociraptor, and animals eat. Besides, Tarantulas eats a rat in "Victory", Rattrap eats an apple in "The Web", Terrorsaur eats a bird in "Power Surge", etc.
But then, just the fact that eating is common place in this show doesn't explain how it's possible so much as that is an established fact in the fiction. But again, they are suppose to be animals, right?
I'm not exactly sure what happened next, but I don't think he was satisfied with the explanation. I think it came down to the fact that they were still machines underneath (thinking of looking at a Beast Wars toy, it might (or might not) look like an animal on the outside, but you know what's underneath.).
Secondly, we have the fact that the Maximals and Predacons had to get beast modes in order to survive the energon radiation. The logic behind this, as I've perceived it so far, though I might be misinterpreting, is that since the life forms on Earth have been able to survive the radiation, their anatomical structure, because of some feature or another, has to be unaffected. Obviously the animals would be non-existent if this weren't so. Therefore, the Maximals and Predacons wanted to borrow their anatomy and get whatever immunity was present in it.
Thirdly, when in beast modes, the beast warriors can enable internal repairs. This suggests some sort of system, and while it doesn't necessarily have to happen on a "cellular" level, that does seem more efficient than actually visible repairing tools trying to fit and move and work around inside a beast mode. Either way, in earlier series like G1, when Cybertronians needed repairs, they would head back to their base to get them. Beast Warriors have CR chambers, but it seems they don't always need them. For example, in Beast Wars Parts II, Optimus Primal manages to re-enable his damaged flight system by remaining in beast mode for long enough.
Point number 4. I was looking at some stat cards the other day, specifically Cheetor's, and was able to pull up something interesting:
We see that stasis pods will sometimes house their protoforms as liquid metal (affirmed in "The Spark" and contradicted in "Fallen Comrades", but either way, it would make sense so that the protoform could form itself into the proper beast mode when that mode gets chosen, and even in "Fallen Comrades" it's possible a liquid metal formed itself into a hard shape by that point because it didn't have any instructions. In "The Spark", after all, when Rhinox safely gets Airazor into stasis lock to buy her spark time, her form becomes solid. Tigatron's may have been doing that... but then... how could he raise his hand into the air while in stasis lock? Either way...).
Robotically functioning liquid metal is still science fiction, so one can't exactly prove the manner of it's functions in a fictional realm where one is not explicitly told by the writers that something is the way it is.
To me though, liquid metal seems at it's most logical, a sea of microcomputers and components (like the pretender was shown to be in Revenge of the Fallen, only I'm thinking even smaller).
Here's my question. Is it possible, given all of the above information, that there was more use of liquid metal in Beast Wars than just for a stasis mode for protoforms? Specifically, when a beast warrior transforms, could their molecular structure be reformatting itself?
In light of the above points, the use of liquid metal could be an explanation. If, when the Beast Warriors acquire their alternate modes, the computer systems of both ships were able to log the entire anatomical structure of the animals the beast warriors used for their alternate mode, instead of just the skin, and shape- the animals' outward appearances- then could that information not be used to to mimic vital animals systems? So when a Beast Warrior transforms, their anatomical structure could take after the animal's- cellular functions, organization, various immune functions related to structure, etc.
This would explain how 1.) a Beast Warrior can eat something. While it is also entirely possible that their robot mode parts simply fold into some sort of efficient calorie burning oven, a molecular imitation of a digestive system could be just as efficient at supplying correct nutrients to such animal features as flesh, hair, etc. We'll probably never know which of the two methods is better. This is fiction. But, before Beast Wars, Cybertronians were never seen to have the capability of eating (as far as I know at least). It seems the connection between not eating and the sudden ability to do so is the shift to an animal alternate mode- which, again, would point to a molecular imitation of the system. It would seem more logical to be consistent with the animals than to invent an entire new system of digestion. But that is my opinion, it is theoretical, and it's debatable.
2.) A beast warrior can easily shift panels and hide its circuitry by looking like an animal, and being concealed in skin or fur, or whatever. It is certainly what the toys, and even some of the animation of the Beast Warriors transformations would at least at first suggest (although, theoretically, it is possible that they transform to get their major mass in the correct position, and then undergo an internal re-arrangement). But most radiations, it seems, aren't prevented by one thin biological layer. It seems like the animals on Earth would be immune simply because their entire anatomical structure is simply unaffected by the radiation, not blocked from it. But that is all theory. If that is true, as it does, to me, seem likely, than an imitation of the internal features of an animal would at least provide a better chance at being protected from the radiation. Of course, radiation would seem to target Cybertronians because of their elemental composition more than their molecular arrangement, but, again, imitating an animal's biological organization might also have provided a better potential for immunity to the radiation.
3.) I kinda' touched on it already, but a molecular repair system does not seem too off the wall for a Transformer. True, internal repair in the midst of blocky folded limbs is not inconceivable, and even then could occur with the help of molecular size components (such as whatever makes up mech fluid). But with a healing system already built into animals, and none mentioned in previous transformers, it again seems to have been originated with the animal alternate modes, and therefore, would far more likely have been an imitation of organic (on a side note, if the word "organic" has its foundation in the words "organism", then it seems Cybertronians, with the gift of life are actually just as much "organisms". They may be composed of foreign metals, but these are still, in the end, life-sustaining, and therefore organic compounds. I'm not sure I agree that Cybertronians can be distinguished from organics. But I suppose it doesn't really matter.) healing found in the creatures on Earth. And if so, then it would be a system of veins, cells, etc- an internal reformation.
4.) If Cheetor's bio truly refers to an enhancement and not a robot underneath skin, than this is, again, evidence, to an animal system- muscles and the like.
Anyways, that's what's been on my mind. I'm pretty certain nothing like this was ever established in the cannon, so I guess I'm checking to see if it's conceivable, and if so, then if it is at all likely.
I'm no*t*.
Me and one of my brothers were watching "Double Dinobot" yesterday, and when Dinobot reveals that he has eaten his clone, my brother got somewhat confused.
So, my first reaction was, well, Dinobot is supposed to be a velociraptor, and animals eat. Besides, Tarantulas eats a rat in "Victory", Rattrap eats an apple in "The Web", Terrorsaur eats a bird in "Power Surge", etc.
But then, just the fact that eating is common place in this show doesn't explain how it's possible so much as that is an established fact in the fiction. But again, they are suppose to be animals, right?
I'm not exactly sure what happened next, but I don't think he was satisfied with the explanation. I think it came down to the fact that they were still machines underneath (thinking of looking at a Beast Wars toy, it might (or might not) look like an animal on the outside, but you know what's underneath.).
Secondly, we have the fact that the Maximals and Predacons had to get beast modes in order to survive the energon radiation. The logic behind this, as I've perceived it so far, though I might be misinterpreting, is that since the life forms on Earth have been able to survive the radiation, their anatomical structure, because of some feature or another, has to be unaffected. Obviously the animals would be non-existent if this weren't so. Therefore, the Maximals and Predacons wanted to borrow their anatomy and get whatever immunity was present in it.
Thirdly, when in beast modes, the beast warriors can enable internal repairs. This suggests some sort of system, and while it doesn't necessarily have to happen on a "cellular" level, that does seem more efficient than actually visible repairing tools trying to fit and move and work around inside a beast mode. Either way, in earlier series like G1, when Cybertronians needed repairs, they would head back to their base to get them. Beast Warriors have CR chambers, but it seems they don't always need them. For example, in Beast Wars Parts II, Optimus Primal manages to re-enable his damaged flight system by remaining in beast mode for long enough.
Point number 4. I was looking at some stat cards the other day, specifically Cheetor's, and was able to pull up something interesting:
Maybe I'm over-analyzing, but that doesn't strike me as "Cheetor's a robot underneath, so he'd wreck any normal cheetah he met". It seemed more like it sounded- an enhanced Cheetah.Like a bolt of greased lightning, Cheetor strikes fast and strikes hard. Quiet and confidant with incredible reflexes, he is equally efficient when battling in robot mode or in his artificially enhanced organic earth form. Cheetor constantly stalks the jungle in search of Predacon enemies, daring them to challenge him and his laser-powered quasar cannon
We see that stasis pods will sometimes house their protoforms as liquid metal (affirmed in "The Spark" and contradicted in "Fallen Comrades", but either way, it would make sense so that the protoform could form itself into the proper beast mode when that mode gets chosen, and even in "Fallen Comrades" it's possible a liquid metal formed itself into a hard shape by that point because it didn't have any instructions. In "The Spark", after all, when Rhinox safely gets Airazor into stasis lock to buy her spark time, her form becomes solid. Tigatron's may have been doing that... but then... how could he raise his hand into the air while in stasis lock? Either way...).
Robotically functioning liquid metal is still science fiction, so one can't exactly prove the manner of it's functions in a fictional realm where one is not explicitly told by the writers that something is the way it is.
To me though, liquid metal seems at it's most logical, a sea of microcomputers and components (like the pretender was shown to be in Revenge of the Fallen, only I'm thinking even smaller).
Here's my question. Is it possible, given all of the above information, that there was more use of liquid metal in Beast Wars than just for a stasis mode for protoforms? Specifically, when a beast warrior transforms, could their molecular structure be reformatting itself?
In light of the above points, the use of liquid metal could be an explanation. If, when the Beast Warriors acquire their alternate modes, the computer systems of both ships were able to log the entire anatomical structure of the animals the beast warriors used for their alternate mode, instead of just the skin, and shape- the animals' outward appearances- then could that information not be used to to mimic vital animals systems? So when a Beast Warrior transforms, their anatomical structure could take after the animal's- cellular functions, organization, various immune functions related to structure, etc.
This would explain how 1.) a Beast Warrior can eat something. While it is also entirely possible that their robot mode parts simply fold into some sort of efficient calorie burning oven, a molecular imitation of a digestive system could be just as efficient at supplying correct nutrients to such animal features as flesh, hair, etc. We'll probably never know which of the two methods is better. This is fiction. But, before Beast Wars, Cybertronians were never seen to have the capability of eating (as far as I know at least). It seems the connection between not eating and the sudden ability to do so is the shift to an animal alternate mode- which, again, would point to a molecular imitation of the system. It would seem more logical to be consistent with the animals than to invent an entire new system of digestion. But that is my opinion, it is theoretical, and it's debatable.
2.) A beast warrior can easily shift panels and hide its circuitry by looking like an animal, and being concealed in skin or fur, or whatever. It is certainly what the toys, and even some of the animation of the Beast Warriors transformations would at least at first suggest (although, theoretically, it is possible that they transform to get their major mass in the correct position, and then undergo an internal re-arrangement). But most radiations, it seems, aren't prevented by one thin biological layer. It seems like the animals on Earth would be immune simply because their entire anatomical structure is simply unaffected by the radiation, not blocked from it. But that is all theory. If that is true, as it does, to me, seem likely, than an imitation of the internal features of an animal would at least provide a better chance at being protected from the radiation. Of course, radiation would seem to target Cybertronians because of their elemental composition more than their molecular arrangement, but, again, imitating an animal's biological organization might also have provided a better potential for immunity to the radiation.
3.) I kinda' touched on it already, but a molecular repair system does not seem too off the wall for a Transformer. True, internal repair in the midst of blocky folded limbs is not inconceivable, and even then could occur with the help of molecular size components (such as whatever makes up mech fluid). But with a healing system already built into animals, and none mentioned in previous transformers, it again seems to have been originated with the animal alternate modes, and therefore, would far more likely have been an imitation of organic (on a side note, if the word "organic" has its foundation in the words "organism", then it seems Cybertronians, with the gift of life are actually just as much "organisms". They may be composed of foreign metals, but these are still, in the end, life-sustaining, and therefore organic compounds. I'm not sure I agree that Cybertronians can be distinguished from organics. But I suppose it doesn't really matter.) healing found in the creatures on Earth. And if so, then it would be a system of veins, cells, etc- an internal reformation.
4.) If Cheetor's bio truly refers to an enhancement and not a robot underneath skin, than this is, again, evidence, to an animal system- muscles and the like.
Anyways, that's what's been on my mind. I'm pretty certain nothing like this was ever established in the cannon, so I guess I'm checking to see if it's conceivable, and if so, then if it is at all likely.
I understand... you are, after all, a predacon.
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Alak
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Wow...um...I think I can only touch the tip of the iceberg since I'm pretty mentally tired right now lol.
- Dinobot ate the clone, but where did the bones go? Is he capable of digesting those too?
- I wouldn't follow the toy since they're just toys. If I cracked open Primal's body, I'd see air instead of circuits and a spark.
- I think that the robot limbs/head don't just fold into the body when transforming to beast mode. They probably shift and transform in order to accommodate the new tasks given to them. Megatron's t-rex head could fire fusion beams but he never displayed this ability in beast mode (Robot Masters is NOT canon, blast it). I'm sure the hardware just reassigned the software to perform the same tasks that the internal hardware did when they're in robot form. I don't even know if this makes sense, but I'll clarify later if needed.
- I'm pretty sure they can eat food in robot form, too. It's just the digestive system is running through a different system structure (see point above). Autobots were dependent on energon as a food source, but Maximals use it to power technology and vehicles. Maybe organic matter is an alternative power source that their bodies were designed to synthesize via the Great Upgrade. Autobots spent enough time on Earth to understand the concept of organic consumption. If they're smart enough to create transwarp drives, they're smart enough to "go green".
- Stasis lock doesn't always mean you go liquid. It just applies to protoforms when they lose energy. Tigatron didn't melt since he wasn't a protoform to begin with, but he didn't have a beast mode to shield him from the energon radiation. Blackarachnia went into stasis lock in Silverbolt's arms in Season 3, but she didn't melt either. Cheetor was implied to go into stasis lock in "The Web" after Scorpinok scrapped him, and so did Megatron in "Power Surge". All four of these characters already had physical bodies to begin with, and therefore their processors just shut down. A protoform has no true body and therefore, a loss in energy will result in the loss of whatever weak molecular bonds that held it together.
- I concur with the molecular repair system. Their bodies work the same way as ours, the only difference is that their skin is made up of a metallic element. Metals are fully capable of having molecular movement as with every solid element or compound known to mankind. Should their bodies be completely rigid without subatomic movement, the ball and socket thing wouldn't even work. That's why I believe some sort of organic chemical reaction occurs during "repair mode" that allows the damaged molecules to return to their original state and form. It'd take a while, though, since reacting one compound to change it into another form could take at least an hour (in an 25 ml beaker). Imagine trying to facilitate particle movement to reshape itself back into the form of your choosing. Should a computer try to do that, it'd use up a LOT of memory. That's probably why Maximals and Predacons have to stay in beast mode because their bodies can't afford to sustain power directed towards weapons, dampers, transportation (until the transmetals arrive), etc.
- Dinobot ate the clone, but where did the bones go? Is he capable of digesting those too?
- I wouldn't follow the toy since they're just toys. If I cracked open Primal's body, I'd see air instead of circuits and a spark.
- I think that the robot limbs/head don't just fold into the body when transforming to beast mode. They probably shift and transform in order to accommodate the new tasks given to them. Megatron's t-rex head could fire fusion beams but he never displayed this ability in beast mode (Robot Masters is NOT canon, blast it). I'm sure the hardware just reassigned the software to perform the same tasks that the internal hardware did when they're in robot form. I don't even know if this makes sense, but I'll clarify later if needed.
- I'm pretty sure they can eat food in robot form, too. It's just the digestive system is running through a different system structure (see point above). Autobots were dependent on energon as a food source, but Maximals use it to power technology and vehicles. Maybe organic matter is an alternative power source that their bodies were designed to synthesize via the Great Upgrade. Autobots spent enough time on Earth to understand the concept of organic consumption. If they're smart enough to create transwarp drives, they're smart enough to "go green".
- Stasis lock doesn't always mean you go liquid. It just applies to protoforms when they lose energy. Tigatron didn't melt since he wasn't a protoform to begin with, but he didn't have a beast mode to shield him from the energon radiation. Blackarachnia went into stasis lock in Silverbolt's arms in Season 3, but she didn't melt either. Cheetor was implied to go into stasis lock in "The Web" after Scorpinok scrapped him, and so did Megatron in "Power Surge". All four of these characters already had physical bodies to begin with, and therefore their processors just shut down. A protoform has no true body and therefore, a loss in energy will result in the loss of whatever weak molecular bonds that held it together.
- I concur with the molecular repair system. Their bodies work the same way as ours, the only difference is that their skin is made up of a metallic element. Metals are fully capable of having molecular movement as with every solid element or compound known to mankind. Should their bodies be completely rigid without subatomic movement, the ball and socket thing wouldn't even work. That's why I believe some sort of organic chemical reaction occurs during "repair mode" that allows the damaged molecules to return to their original state and form. It'd take a while, though, since reacting one compound to change it into another form could take at least an hour (in an 25 ml beaker). Imagine trying to facilitate particle movement to reshape itself back into the form of your choosing. Should a computer try to do that, it'd use up a LOT of memory. That's probably why Maximals and Predacons have to stay in beast mode because their bodies can't afford to sustain power directed towards weapons, dampers, transportation (until the transmetals arrive), etc.
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Blazemane
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I'll go in depth later, because I've got some stuff to do, but there was one thing I noticed:
I'm saying when they were protoforms, they hardened when they went into stasis lock. They didn't melt. I know other beats warriors don't liquefy when they go to stasis lock.- Stasis lock doesn't always mean you go liquid. It just applies to protoforms when they lose energy. Tigatron didn't melt since he wasn't a protoform to begin with, but he didn't have a beast mode to shield him from the energon radiation. Blackarachnia went into stasis lock in Silverbolt's arms in Season 3, but she didn't melt either. Cheetor was implied to go into stasis lock in "The Web" after Scorpinok scrapped him, and so did Megatron in "Power Surge". All four of these characters already had physical bodies to begin with, and therefore their processors just shut down. A protoform has no true body and therefore, a loss in energy will result in the loss of whatever weak molecular bonds that held it together.
when Rhinox safely gets Airazor into stasis lock to buy her spark time, her form becomes solid.
I understand... you are, after all, a predacon.
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Alak
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Gotcha, here's something btw:
Maybe the liquefying could just be the diminishing spark while the solidifying is the conservation of it.Stasis lock is a critical state of being for Transformers. Stasis lock is a sort of coma that allows a Transformer to stay alive, running at the lowest level of power, despite massive energy loss or traumatic damage. Stasis lock can come about in a few different ways.
The first way is from a shock of massive damage. When the Ark crashed on Earth all of the occupants on board were retconned into emergency stasis lock. At various times during the Beast Wars combatants had to be returned to their respective bases due to going into stasis lock after being badly damaged.
The second way seems to be a more gradual process and can come about from damage and energy depletion over a longer period of time. Dinobot was told by his internal computer to go into stasis lock or risk losing his spark. This method is a conscious decision, and the Transformer can choose to override stasis lock, unlike the first way which seems to be an unconscious action by the Transformer's on-board computer.
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artemis-lady-warrior
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BWAHAHA! I'm sorry that just put a really wacky mental image in my mind.-
NaitoKage
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The food thing isn't that strange.. Orignally in G1 there was a class of robots called "Powermasters" in the US, they were Nebulans(alien humans essentially) rebuilt into a powerarmor system where they consumed organic food to be used as a fuel supply system, by transforming into an engine and attaching to the robot. in the comics this was explained as an alternitive as Nebulan poisoned their fuel supplies so the only option they had for living was that.
In japan those were totally different, but I wont get into that.
The insecticons in the G1 cartoon also had the ability.. but they could eat anything and process it into fuel. ANYTHING.
Now considering the pretender technology and Micromaster technology.. it seems like the Maximal and Predacon technology is a combination of these three systems.
In japan those were totally different, but I wont get into that.
The insecticons in the G1 cartoon also had the ability.. but they could eat anything and process it into fuel. ANYTHING.
Now considering the pretender technology and Micromaster technology.. it seems like the Maximal and Predacon technology is a combination of these three systems.
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artemis-lady-warrior
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NaitoKage
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Alak
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Ok new question: sparks.
I always thought that it was the spark that made the transformer. Sure, you can change their faction, but that shouldn't really change their personality that much right? I mean, Blackarachnia didn't seem to change that much when she became a Maximal (except being a good-sided character). Dinobot #1 didn't change and neither did Silverbolt. Even when Optimus Prime's spark was being held inside Primal's body, the latter began to show characteristics of the Autobot.
Then came Beast Machines. Now, I know a lot of you choose not to include this series in the Transformers canon, but let's roll with it. Rhinox, Silverbolt, and Waspinator were totally different than their BW counterparts. Even with personality tampering, Beast War's smartest character was essentially downgraded into a Hulk-like mind. Waspinator's IQ just jumped several units. Silverbolt was....well he's hard to figure out since his BW version was smart but naive, so Jetstorm was probably just a personality tamper. Anyways, can anyone explain their ideas on what creates a Transformer's identity? How much does the spark really control the body besides give it sentient life and reasoning capabilities? Is Dinobot II really Dinobot since the original hero's spark joined the Matrix?
I always thought that it was the spark that made the transformer. Sure, you can change their faction, but that shouldn't really change their personality that much right? I mean, Blackarachnia didn't seem to change that much when she became a Maximal (except being a good-sided character). Dinobot #1 didn't change and neither did Silverbolt. Even when Optimus Prime's spark was being held inside Primal's body, the latter began to show characteristics of the Autobot.
Then came Beast Machines. Now, I know a lot of you choose not to include this series in the Transformers canon, but let's roll with it. Rhinox, Silverbolt, and Waspinator were totally different than their BW counterparts. Even with personality tampering, Beast War's smartest character was essentially downgraded into a Hulk-like mind. Waspinator's IQ just jumped several units. Silverbolt was....well he's hard to figure out since his BW version was smart but naive, so Jetstorm was probably just a personality tamper. Anyways, can anyone explain their ideas on what creates a Transformer's identity? How much does the spark really control the body besides give it sentient life and reasoning capabilities? Is Dinobot II really Dinobot since the original hero's spark joined the Matrix?