Who is more powerful?

[EverBlue]

I do believe Silverbolt would win this. The first time they fought, Quickstrike seemed to be winning but he caught Silverbolt completely off guard. I mean, Silverbolt's reaction was basically, "WTF! Why's this guy attacking me? Aren't we on the same side?" It's like with all the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith. They probably would've sliced up all those clone troopers if they hadn't been faced with such a shocking betrayal that set in too late.

After that, Silverbolt became much more focused on defeating Quickstrike in Tangled Web and pretty much did. So yeah, the corny forces of good triumph as usual. Besides, archetypal snake enemies usually aren't all that strong anyways.

[VelociBerg]

Megs was prepared to get up and continue but Rattrap wasn't done either, really. The only reason Rattrap got downed was because Cheetor jumped into the fray and bungled things up. Plus, later on, we see Rattrap downing Megatron from the sky in COTF Pt 2 with one little shot.

Simply getting shot down from the sky (especially when all you have are two little propeller-turbine things) does not equal to having your can kicked unless your name is Waspinator, Terrorsaur, or Silverbolt.

And let's not forget about Maximal No More. All Rattrap had to do was shoot him from the side to knock him down. Megatron's more powerful but judging from what we can infer from the show, Rattrap's got what... a few more years of combat experience than Megatron?

True, Megatron got knocked down. But how close was RT when he actually fired via unsuspected attack? Pretty close if you look at it. The range and type of weapon used would play a direct part in the level of damage and recoil. Cheetor's "gut gun" for instance, only fazed Megs for a few seconds in BW Pt 1.

I don't know about you but not many people can stand after getting bitten by something with really nasty fangs. Plus, Megatron got dazed after getting hit a few times. Besides, who was the one getting punched around and then physically dominated before getting tossed into the side of the mountain?

By your quote you act like Megatron got zero hits in. You see, Optimus must've been on an energon high or something, since he stood there and let a charging Tyrannosaurus Rex ram him into a mountain wall without an attempt to dodge. This is followed by a crippling bite to the left leg.

As for Megatron being able to stand and then some, I seem to recall that being a last resort manuever on his part. Even if he did get to destroy Optimus, he would've destroyed himself in the blast. And let's not forget that he was down in just a few seconds flat from the energon overload anyways. If Megatron really could keep up with Optimus, I doubt he would've transformed to fire off a desperate suicide attack.

True...OR he simply lost his temper. Battle rage and whatnot. We've seen that battle rage impairs one's judgement. The facts are these:

That Primal did indeed slam Megatron around some, and vice versa. In the end, a battered Megatron stood perfectly straight, while Optimus wasn't. Megatron could've finished Primal in beast mode. With one leg out, all he needed to do was simply stomp on him or something with his ginormous T-Rex foot, bite him a couple more times, etc.

Optimus kicked Megatron's butt while both were seemingly in peak condition in robot mode. It seems pretty basic to me. I guess by your logic, all fights in the show are just how the plot unfolds.

Not exactly. Was it just Megatron who was dominated? No, it was the entire Predacon force. Only in this, and in one other episode, were beast and robot fully utilized. Meaning it was just a fancy way to get the Preds to lose. After that episode I saw very few special interactions between robot and beast mode (Tigatron and AirRazor not counting), so that is how the plot unfolds. If a few Preds were actually winning against the Maximals, beast interactions or not, I would never have said that this was just how the plot unfolds. Instead, Rhinox (I think it was Rhinox) using RT as a bowling ball seemed an effective weapon. Too bad it was hardly used again, if ever. See my point?

But you're right. A win is a win. And Optimus won against Megatron more times than not.

So should Primal dying from one of Megatron's plans (unexpectedly, sure, Tarantulas was the intended victim. But a win is a win.) count as the tie-breaker?

I don't mean to sound nitpicky or rude but watch the scene again closely. Megatron never smacked him. He just grabbed him and threw him. Dinobot didn't really bother putting up much resistance at all, did he?

Meh. Smacked, Grabbed-and-threw, whatever. The point is that the deed was still done. If Dinobot chooses to defy his warrior instincts and not defend himself, that's his deal.

There are easily many other scenes in the show where people display great feats of strength. I mean, Optimus did grab Megatron(who probably weighs somewhere over 25 tons?) by the tail and hurl him into the side of a mountain, even with an injured leg and all.

Ah, heres where I get to sound nitpicky. Optimus grabbed Megs by the tail. True. He did not hurl him. He had to spin to gain momentum and then hurl him. There is a difference. One is being smart, the other is saying "HULK SMASH!".

And maybe it's just me... but the Autobot shuttle seemed more like a Deux Ex easy ending than anything else. It didn't even hit Megatron all that hard to justify ending the fight.

No, but it wasn't the only thing Megs was slammed into. First Rhinox smacks him with the shuttle. Then Megs (still on the shuttle) is smacked into what I think is the fusion reactor of the Nemesis. Following that, he collides with the opposite end of the control room before the scene is cut off. For all we know, Rhinox took him on a joyride and began crashing into things just to see Megatron's face contort in pain.

Please understand, I'm not trying to make Megatron sound like an invincible god or anything. He isn't. He has flaws, just as all the characters do. I'm just saying that despite the scoreboard, when it came down to the final decisive battle to end all battles, Optimal Optimus Primal was down for the count.
--------

Ahhh.. excellent. A champion for the darkness has arisen which should make this thread all the more interesting.

Er...hate to put you out, but I agree with EverBlue on this. The brave and noble Silverbolt FTW. If you can overpower or overcome the Cybervenom, Quickstrike is done. This is shown by Dinobot in Maximal No More, and Silverbolt himself in Tangled Web. Fairly easy decision to make.

[EverBlue]

True...OR he simply lost his temper. Battle rage and whatnot. We've seen that battle rage impairs one's judgement. The facts are these:

That Primal did indeed slam Megatron around some, and vice versa. In the end, a battered Megatron stood perfectly straight, while Optimus wasn't. Megatron could've finished Primal in beast mode. With one leg out, all he needed to do was simply stomp on him or something with his ginormous T-Rex foot, bite him a couple more times, etc.

If that's the case, why didn't he just do it and end the battle? After throwing him, Optimus did tell Megatron that it was over despite his injured leg. If that implied anything, it meant that Optimus would've continued fighting Megatron despite his wounds, pounding the big purple dinosaur however many times it would take to finish the job. You're also forgetting that Megatron, before shooting his missile, did cry out, "It is NEVER over, NO! For if I must die, I shall take you with me!"

That sounds pretty much like a last-ditch attempt to me.

Not exactly. Was it just Megatron who was dominated? No, it was the entire Predacon force. Only in this, and in one other episode, were beast and robot fully utilized. Meaning it was just a fancy way to get the Preds to lose. After that episode I saw very few special interactions between robot and beast mode (Tigatron and AirRazor not counting), so that is how the plot unfolds. If a few Preds were actually winning against the Maximals, beast interactions or not, I would never have said that this was just how the plot unfolds. Instead, Rhinox (I think it was Rhinox) using RT as a bowling ball seemed an effective weapon. Too bad it was hardly used again, if ever. See my point?

No offense, but I still don't see how it counts as only a plot device. It did, however, go to show that at this point, the Maximals of Season One had become so stable, cohesive, and close-knit that they'd defeat the Predacons for certain if they launched an all-out attack. And so what if the Predacons didn't score any hits? Optimus still beat Megatron under the best of circumstances. What more do you need? I guess this is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on but I will say, however, that I definitely agree with you that it's a darned shame these types of battles weren't utilized much more afterwards.

So should Primal dying from one of Megatron's plans (unexpectedly, sure, Tarantulas was the intended victim. But a win is a win.) count as the tie-breaker?

I was talking about the physical battles but it's cool.

Meh. Smacked, Grabbed-and-threw, whatever. The point is that the deed was still done.

Grabbing some patsy who wanted to die still doesn't seem like much of a great feat of power to me.

Ah, heres where I get to sound nitpicky. Optimus grabbed Megs by the tail. True. He did not hurl him. He had to spin to gain momentum and then hurl him. There is a difference. One is being smart, the other is saying "HULK SMASH!".

So you admit Megs isn't that smart of a fighter? I mean, you already said that he suffered from the Transformers equivalent of road rage, not to mention the Hulk syndrome.

Please understand, I'm not trying to make Megatron sound like an invincible god or anything. He isn't. He has flaws, just as all the characters do. I'm just saying that despite the scoreboard, when it came down to the final decisive battle to end all battles, Optimal Optimus Primal was down for the count.

I see where you're coming from, dude. I'm not denying that Optimus Primal lost the last battle either. In the shapes they were in, Megatron would have come out on top with the added power of the original. There's no way Optimus, in his state, would've triumphed against Megatron. And no, I'm not trying to make Optimus out as this overblown Roman gladiator who can kick everyone's butts either. I'm only saying, from my point of view, that despite the final battle's outcome and despite Megatron being stronger than Optimus in his state, Optimus would still defeat Megatron more times than not for all the strength, skill, and willpower that he's displayed many times(and trust me, I RARELY compliment Optimus characters this way in most TF cartoons). I mean, the statistics are squarely in favor of Optimus. Heck, you said it yourself that the scoreboards showed it.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not too biased towards Optimus, even if he is one of my top five favorite characters. Seriously, I'll turn tail and jump ship once the battle turns into Depth Charge vs. Optimus or Rampage vs. Optimus. No, really. Count on it. Heck, I'd even encourage you to quote me on it and use it against me later if I contradict myself.

[VelociBerg]

If that's the case, why didn't he just do it and end the battle?

As I said Battle Rage. For example, in Gorilla Warfare, rage carried Optimus throughout the entire Predacon base, when the normal Optimus would've never dared to do such a thing, because then he would've still had sense. In Power Surge Megs charged at Terrorsaur when he would've been better off to play dead. Rage takes a toll on logic.

After throwing him, Optimus did tell Megatron that it was over despite his injured leg. If that implied anything, it meant that Optimus would've continued fighting Megatron despite his wounds, pounding the big purple dinosaur however many times it would take to finish the job.

But do we know for a fact if he actually meant it, or was bluffing his way through? I know I'd still try to look tough if I had soldiers to lead and my leg had a huge piece bitten out of it.

You're also forgetting that Megatron, before shooting his missile, did cry out, "It is NEVER over, NO! For if I must die, I shall take you with me!"

That sounds pretty much like a last-ditch attempt to me.

And Tarantulas did say that it would take over a minute before actually dying in robot form. If anything, Megatron would've transformed back again after the missile hit Optimus. (assuming Dinobot wasn't there to save the day) Megatron's taken far worse injuries than a couple of punches to the face and getting slammed into a wall.

No offense, but I still don't see how it counts as only a plot device.

I don't refer to Optimus beating Megatron, I refer to Maximal v. Pred here. The mere fact that such battles hardly ever occurred again is proof enough that it was a plot device. Hell, how many times have we seen Optimal Optimus even transform to beast mode?

It did, however, go to show that at this point, the Maximals of Season One had become so stable, cohesive, and close-knit that they'd defeat the Predacons for certain if they launched an all-out attack.

But that doesn't explain why the Predacons won victories against the Maximals later, especially on their home ground, aka, their base.

And so what if the Predacons didn't score any hits? Optimus still beat Megatron under the best of circumstances. What more do you need?

I've already given you the Optimus wins vs. Megs in this fight. What I'm saying is that the Predacons were dumbed down for this episode just to show off the cool new tricks the Maximals learned, tricks they barely used ever again--despite their apparent effectiveness...and cheesiness for some.

I guess this is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on but I will say, however, that I definitely agree with you that it's a darned shame these types of battles weren't utilized much more afterwards.

Yup. I agree with the above quote completely, no arguments. Darned shame.

Grabbing some patsy who wanted to die still doesn't seem like much of a great feat of power to me.

No, but grabbing him and throwing him across the room does. How much must TM2 Dinobot weigh? And as I said earlier, if Dinobot wants to defy his warrior instincts, and everything that IS Dinobot by not defending himself, that's his deal.

So you admit Megs isn't that smart of a fighter?

He's not a smart fighter because he lets his temper get away with his fighting. But Optimus isn't a smart one either. Standing there and letting a T-Rex charge you is not the smartest option, yes?

Besides, in the final battle onboard the Nemesis did we see Optimal Optimus transform at all? He has twice as many modes as Dragon Megatron, but he only used one. I can think of times where his flight mode might've come in handy. Megs isn't the only one who has made mistakes in a fight, ya know.

I mean, you already said that he suffered from the Transformers equivalent of road rage, not to mention the Hulk syndrome.

Bah, must've worded it wrong. I was just being nitpicky. The HULK SMASH referred to if Optimus hadn't spun Megs around, and had simply thrown him. The smart thing was spinning him, the HULK thing was just picking him up and hurling him.

I see where you're coming from, dude. I'm not denying that Optimus Primal lost the last battle either. In the shapes they were in, Megatron would have come out on top with the added power of the original.

So if Optimus had Prime's spark he could triumph?

And no, I'm not trying to make Optimus out as this overblown Roman gladiator who can kick everyone's butts either.

Damn straight, that's Dinobot's job.

I'm only saying, from my point of view, that despite the final battle's outcome and despite Megatron being stronger than Optimus in his state, Optimus would still defeat Megatron more times than not

Heck, you said it yourself that the scoreboards showed it.

But what does the number of wins matter when the enemy is about to crush and obliterate everything you've worked for with a giant Decepticon battleship, and you can do nothing about it?

for all the strength, skill, and willpower that he's displayed many times. I mean, the statistics are squarely in favor of Optimus.

Optimus isn't exactly the best thing to measure up to, because his statistics just don't stay the same. When he first came back as a transmetal, he whooped all the Preds except for Megs, and I only say that because its true. He didn't beat Megatron, Silverbolt knocked him off a cliff.

But in The Agenda, both he and Cheetor (both transmetals, I might add) were kept at bay by Inferno, who was taken out by energon surge.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not too biased towards Optimus, even if he is one of my top five favorite characters. Seriously, I'll turn tail and jump ship once the battle turns into Depth Charge vs. Optimus or Rampage vs. Optimus. No, really. Count on it. Heck, I'd even encourage you to quote me on it and use it against me later if I contradict myself.

The quote is now stored for future reference...but I don't think I'll need it. I believe you.

[EverBlue]

But do we know for a fact if he actually meant it, or was bluffing his way through? I know I'd still try to look tough if I had soldiers to lead and my leg had a huge piece bitten out of it.

Then how do you know Megatron wasn't bluffing and trying to look tough either. He did manage to stand up but for all you know, he could've had a dozen broken joints on the inside from the pounding(just not in his legs).

And Tarantulas did say that it would take over a minute before actually dying in robot form. If anything, Megatron would've transformed back again after the missile hit Optimus. (assuming Dinobot wasn't there to save the day) Megatron's taken far worse injuries than a couple of punches to the face and getting slammed into a wall.

That doesn't prove anything. Megatron still fired off an attack that would've destroyed the whole mountain in a fiery explosion that had the potential risk of blowing himself up along with Optimus. But he didn't transform back to robot mode, did he? He got knocked down from the surge of energon. Yes, Megatron is able and willing to take worse injuries than punches and this part showed it. He wasn't able to beat Optimus in beast mode and had to resort to a kamikaze attack as a last resort. Heck, he said he was willing to die jus to take Optimus out. That implies at least SOME degree of desperation on his part.

He's not a smart fighter because he lets his temper get away with his fighting. But Optimus isn't a smart one either. Standing there and letting a T-Rex charge you is not the smartest option, yes?

Yes. But you're also forgetting that Optimus learns from his mistakes unlike Megatron who keeps charging like some raging bull. Hell, in Other Visits Part II, Megatron, who was in his T-Rex flight mode charged Optimus like said raging bull. And guess what Optimus did this time? That's right... he ducked and let Megatron bite down and fry his circuits from some Vok tube. So maybe Optimus doesn't ALWAYS use his intelligence and caution in a fight, but he uses it a heck of a lot more than Megatron.

I've already given you the Optimus wins vs. Megs in this fight. What I'm saying is that the Predacons were dumbed down for this episode just to show off the cool new tricks the Maximals learned, tricks they barely used ever again--despite their apparent effectiveness...and cheesiness for some.

Dumbed down or not, Megatron still lost to Optimus under the best of conditions.

Besides, in the final battle onboard the Nemesis did we see Optimal Optimus transform at all? He has twice as many modes as Dragon Megatron, but he only used one. I can think of times where his flight mode might've come in handy. Megs isn't the only one who has made mistakes in a fight, ya know.

And this has to do with what? I already admitted that Optimus, in his condition, couldn't win against Megatron with the added power of the G1 namesake spark.

So if Optimus had Prime's spark he could triumph?

Pretty much. Think about it. More power, more strength, better insight, a mystical connection to the Matrix, etc.. Even if Megatron were to attack his spark, I'm not sure how well your theory could hold up. I mean, Optimus could already injure Megatron even without Prime's spark. Just think how much harder he'd hit WITH Prime's spark.

But what does the number of wins matter when the enemy is about to crush and obliterate everything you've worked for with a giant Decepticon battleship, and you can do nothing about it?

Because it still counts as one of the few times Megatron could defeat Optimus compared to the number of times Optimus could wipe the floor with him. Besides, if you've watched Beast Machines(which I think is a sub-par sequel but that's besides the point at hand), you'll notice that Megatron in his dragon/TMII/TM/Optimal form couldn't even beat a weaker techno-organic Optimus. Seriously, the guy got put down and locked in a chokehold. That's really pathetic, considering even without the original Megatron's spark, BW Megatron still has one of the most powerful beast and robot modes ever(even if he did despise it). You know what Megatron had to resort to at the end of the series just to have an edge over Optimus? He had to steal Optimus Primal's Optimal body to gain an edge and pound Primal around but even then, he still lost.

Optimus isn't exactly the best thing to measure up to, because his statistics just don't stay the same. When he first came back as a transmetal, he whooped all the Preds except for Megs, and I only say that because its true. He didn't beat Megatron, Silverbolt knocked him off a cliff.

But in The Agenda, both he and Cheetor (both transmetals, I might add) were kept at bay by Inferno, who was taken out by energon surge

Yeah, Silverbolt knocked Megatron down the cliff but so what? Optimus turned around and saw Megatron before Silverbolt appeared and knocked Megatron over. For all you know, Optimus could have dodged the shot and returned fire. Optimus didn't beat Megatron here but I wouldn't take it so far as to say Megatron would've won either. All he had were his guns trained on Optimus. It doesn't necessarily mean he would've scored a shot.

And by you argument, I guess you could say that nobody in the show is the best thing to measure up to because EVERYONE has inconsistent stats. Even in his TM form, Megatron got taken out by a non-TM in the form of Dinobot. And even while he had Megatron's spark and beaten Optimus in Master Blaster, he still RAN when the Maximals opened fire on him. For someone with so much power, you'd think he would stay and crush these less powerful opponents by all logic. What I'm saying is that despite their stats flunctuating from time to time, Optimus would still beat Megatron by a large margin. I'm not saying he'd do it all the time but from what we've seen, he'd still accomplish it most of the time.

[VelociBerg]

Then how do you know Megatron wasn't bluffing and trying to look tough either. He did manage to stand up but for all you know, he could've had a dozen broken joints on the inside from the pounding(just not in his legs).

Then some of those broken joints would've fallen out when he transformed, silly!

That doesn't prove anything. Megatron still fired off an attack that would've destroyed the whole mountain in a fiery explosion that had the potential risk of blowing himself up along with Optimus.

I honestly don't think it would've. Assuming of course, that it actually hit the intended target. The worst damage done would've been done to Optimus, unless he had some form of reflective coating on to make the missile magically bounce off.

But he didn't transform back to robot mode, did he? He got knocked down from the surge of energon. Yes, Megatron is able and willing to take worse injuries than punches and this part showed it. He wasn't able to beat Optimus in beast mode and had to resort to a kamikaze attack as a last resort. Heck, he said he was willing to die jus to take Optimus out. That implies at least SOME degree of desperation on his part.

Perhaps, but not all of it was due to the fighting. Think about it, he's been on the run for stealing the Disk, had his ship shot down, had his second-in-command challenge him for Predacon leadership, (Dinobot was a great loss) and is stranded on an unknown planet with Maximals. His team is filled with traitors, and incompetents. It wouldn't be until Inferno that he got a soldier he could trust. Wouldn't YOU be a little crazy? I know I would. Then the whole fight scene came around, and one thing led to another.

Yes. But you're also forgetting that Optimus learns from his mistakes unlike Megatron who keeps charging like some raging bull.

Yet I seem to recall Optimus doing something like the raging bull in Nemesis, only to get burned by dragon-breath.

So maybe Optimus doesn't ALWAYS use his intelligence and caution in a fight, but he uses it a heck of a lot more than Megatron.

I'll give you that, unless he's in self-righteous Savior Mode.

Dumbed down or not, Megatron still lost to Optimus under the best of conditions.

Argh! I've already moved on from the fight in this episode for quite a while now. Yes, Optimus won this time. Hooray for the apes! Rejoice!

I'm focusing on the episode as a whole, and that it was a plot device of how the Maximals won that day. NOT just Optimus beating Megatron. ALL of them.

And this has to do with what? I already admitted that Optimus, in his condition, couldn't win against Megatron with the added power of the G1 namesake spark.

It has to do with Optimus not using his brain that time, letting rage and desperation dull his wits.

Pretty much. Think about it. More power, more strength, better insight, a mystical connection to the Matrix, etc..

Except...we've never seen Primal tap into Prime's connection. In fact, the most mystical he ever got was reading from the Covenant of Primus. And I personally don't believe two sparks amount to anything other than an upgrade no matter who you are, Megs, Optimus, Tigerhawk. You name it.

Even if Megatron were to attack his spark, I'm not sure how well your theory could hold up.

If it couldn't happen, then Optimus wouldn't have taken the time to block Rampage's missile. Rampage is decidedly less powerful than Megatron's final form.

I mean, Optimus could already injure Megatron even without Prime's spark. Just think how much harder he'd hit WITH Prime's spark.

Optimus still seems fragile to me. TM2 Dinobot took him out in one hit, not to mention that his sheer size is like shooting at the broadside of a barn with a shotgun at times.

Because it still counts as one of the few times Megatron could defeat Optimus compared to the number of times Optimus could wipe the floor with him.

You also have to consider the magnitude of the defeat. All those times when Optimus beat Megatron down was essentially an "I'll get you next time! CURSE YOU PRIMAL!" type of thing. When Megatron had Optimal Optimus down, everything was going to go with him.

Besides, if you've watched Beast Machines(which I think is a sub-par sequel but that's besides the point at hand)

...You bring THAT excuse of a show into your argument? *reads on*

you'll notice that Megatron in his dragon/TMII/TM/Optimal form couldn't even beat a weaker techno-organic Optimus.

*Sigh*, I guess since I HAVE to respond to this relevant, yet BM related comment: (However, seeing as I hate Beast Machines with a passion just don't respond to any BM-related comments if they make no sense whatsoever, and move on to more relevant arguments of mine)

You have to consider several things though. First off, its not the same beast mode. Sort of. Megatron had done everything he could to remove it, remember? Who knows how the dragon was weakened because of that.

Second, Optimus is fresh from the Beast Wars. Megatron has spent the last year (or however long it was that he took Cybertron as his own) letting Vehicons do the work for him, and hooked up to some Borg-like thing that lets him see and hear everything. Besides, Optimus is notorious for learning how to utilize new bodies. This would be the...4th time he's done so? How long has it been since Megs was last in a decent fight?

Seriously, the guy got put down and locked in a chokehold. That's really pathetic, considering even without the original Megatron's spark, BW Megatron still has one of the most powerful beast and robot modes ever(even if he did despise it).

I don't seem to recall the chokehold lasting too long. But it doesn't matter. Why? Because Megatron was pretty much a noncombatant in Beast Machines until the end, letting people like Jetstorm do the work for him.

You know what Megatron had to resort to at the end of the series just to have an edge over Optimus?

Well that fortress of himself successfully abducted Optimus at least once...

He had to steal Optimus Primal's Optimal body to gain an edge and pound Primal around but even then, he still lost.

So what? Perhaps the techno-organic bodies aren't as weak as they seem then.

Yeah, Silverbolt knocked Megatron down the cliff but so what? Optimus turned around and saw Megatron before Silverbolt appeared and knocked Megatron over. For all you know, Optimus could have dodged the shot and returned fire. Optimus didn't beat Megatron here but I wouldn't take it so far as to say Megatron would've won either. All he had were his guns trained on Optimus. It doesn't necessarily mean he would've scored a shot.

Dude, I was just stating what happened. I never said, NEVER said that Megatron won that, did I? I can see where it might've have been implied, but the implication was never there on purpose. As you yourself said, so what? I was just showing the inconsistencies in Pirmal's strength.

And by you argument, I guess you could say that nobody in the show is the best thing to measure up to because EVERYONE has inconsistent stats.

True...

Even in his TM form, Megatron got taken out by a non-TM in the form of Dinobot.

Again, not a valid argument since Dinobot took everyone down, TM or not.

And even while he had Megatron's spark and beaten Optimus in Master Blaster, he still RAN when the Maximals opened fire on him.

I'd run too if I suddenly found myself outnumbered like that. I'll freely say this here, he would've been worn out eventually by Optimus/Maximal firepower.

What I'm saying is that despite their stats flunctuating from time to time, Optimus would still beat Megatron by a large margin. I'm not saying he'd do it all the time but from what we've seen, he'd still accomplish it most of the time.

But the scoreboard should then be wiped clean after each upgrade. Let's face it. The original purple T-Rex Megatron wasn't that good. In Spiders' Game, Tarantulas did more damage than Megatron did to Tigatron.

Come TM time, and both are now transmetals. Megatron is again at a loss simply because his weaponry isn't rapid-fire like Primal's. BUT things are starting to even up. Megatron can now fly, for instance.

Last upgrade and we have Optimal vs. Dragon. We've all seen the results of those fights.

What I'm saying is that it is true. Optimus had the lead for awhile. But as the series progressed, his advantage became slimmer and slimmer. Finally he HAD no advantage.

If anyone else wants to comment, feel free to do so by the way! Don't let us two hog the thread!

[EverBlue]

I honestly don't think it would've. Assuming of course, that it actually hit the intended target. The worst damage done would've been done to Optimus, unless he had some form of reflective coating on to make the missile magically bounce off.

And like I said before, a risky desperate last-ditch attempt to destroy your enemy is still just that... a desperate last-ditch attempt

Perhaps, but not all of it was due to the fighting. Think about it, he's been on the run for stealing the Disk, had his ship shot down, had his second-in-command challenge him for Predacon leadership, (Dinobot was a great loss) and is stranded on an unknown planet with Maximals. His team is filled with traitors, and incompetents. It wouldn't be until Inferno that he got a soldier he could trust. Wouldn't YOU be a little crazy? I know I would. Then the whole fight scene came around, and one thing led to another.

To be fair, we have to take into consideration that the Beast Wars had just began in this short time-span in only two episodes. To me, it seemed like Megatron just took whatever troops he could on Cybertron for his mission without any consideration as to their loyalty. We don't know for certain if Megatron knew for sure that half his troops at this time were treacherous and untrustworthy(Tarantulas and Terrorsaur). Power Surge did tell us that Terrorsaur did try to overthrow Megatron a few times but for all we know, it might not have taken place before Beast Wars Part I and II. That scene could've very well taken place from the end of BW Part II to Power Surge. Maybe the incompetents part Megatron was well aware of from the beginning but as for the treachery thing? He may not have known it at that time.

Yet I seem to recall Optimus doing something like the raging bull in Nemesis, only to get burned by dragon-breath.

Several of the guy's friends just died coupled with the threat of a big looming warship. Wouldn't you be as desperate as that if you were in his shoes?

Argh! I've already moved on from the fight in this episode for quite a while now. Yes, Optimus won this time. Hooray for the apes! Rejoice!

I'm focusing on the episode as a whole, and that it was a plot device of how the Maximals won that day. NOT just Optimus beating Megatron. ALL of them.

Fair enough. But plot device or not, it still doesn't change the fact that Optimus beat Megatron squarely.

It has to do with Optimus not using his brain that time, letting rage and desperation dull his wits.

Yes, yes. I believe I've admitted this a few times. I admit he doesn't use his brain ALL that time and I admit that he can't win against Megatron ALL the time. I think I've covered it already.

Optimus still seems fragile to me. TM2 Dinobot took him out in one hit, not to mention that his sheer size is like shooting at the broadside of a barn with a shotgun at times.

Have you considered that TMII Dinobot taking out Optimus might've just been a plot device as well? I mean seriously... with every intro episode, new characters can perform amazing feats that they couldn't do in a normal episodes, from taking out heavy hitters to dozens of Preds without so much as a scratch.

You also have to consider the magnitude of the defeat. All those times when Optimus beat Megatron down was essentially an "I'll get you next time! CURSE YOU PRIMAL!" type of thing. When Megatron had Optimal Optimus down, everything was going to go with him.

Granted, there were a lot of those. But I'm also taking into account the magnitude of defeats Megatron suffered to Optimus on a purely PHYSICAL battle. Let's see, Optimus beat Megs pretty squarely in BW PT 2, Call of the Wild, Other Visits Pt 2, and Optimal Situation. Megatron had Optimus down in what... only two episodes? I've said it before and I've said it again. Optimus will defeat Megatron more times than not. Yeah, Megatron did crush Optimus in the final episode but what if Beast Wars had continued with Nemesis Pt II not really being a final episode? There's certainly a large chance Optimus would continue to defeat Megatron most of the time on the battlefield(with a few losses in fair fights here and there).

*Sigh*, I guess since I HAVE to respond to this relevant, yet BM related comment: (However, seeing as I hate Beast Machines with a passion just don't respond to any BM-related comments if they make no sense whatsoever, and move on to more relevant arguments of mine)

You have to consider several things though. First off, its not the same beast mode. Sort of. Megatron had done everything he could to remove it, remember? Who knows how the dragon was weakened because of that.

Second, Optimus is fresh from the Beast Wars. Megatron has spent the last year (or however long it was that he took Cybertron as his own) letting Vehicons do the work for him, and hooked up to some Borg-like thing that lets him see and hear everything. Besides, Optimus is notorious for learning how to utilize new bodies. This would be the...4th time he's done so? How long has it been since Megs was last in a decent fight?

Don't get me wrong. I don't like Beast Machines either. And I consider your BM arguments to be pretty relevant. I'm just using BM as an argument, seeing as it's the last official Hasbro series that has the original BW characters in it. Would you honestly rather me go to fanfiction.net and search up some uber-OOC fic to reference?

I don't seem to recall the chokehold lasting too long. But it doesn't matter. Why? Because Megatron was pretty much a noncombatant in Beast Machines until the end, letting people like Jetstorm do the work for him.

That still doesn't cover a few things. I mean, the guy just woke up in Primal's TM-something body and all of a sudden, he could fight well again? It's like you said, he's been a non-combatant for over... a year? It still doesn't make much sense. This may be less directed towards your comment and more towards Beast Machines' way of storytelling in general so take this argument however you must.

So what? Perhaps the techno-organic bodies aren't as weak as they seem then.

Maybe they are weaker, maybe they're not. Optimus still beat Megatron in both dragon and Optimal mode in the end. Granted his final victory over Megatron was really corny but it still counts as a victory nonetheless.

Dude, I was just stating what happened. I never said, NEVER said that Megatron won that, did I? I can see where it might've have been implied, but the implication was never there on purpose. As you yourself said, so what? I was just showing the inconsistencies in Pirmal's strength.

The implication was indeed there. But since you said it wasn't on purpose, I'll take you at your word.

But the scoreboard should then be wiped clean after each upgrade. Let's face it. The original purple T-Rex Megatron wasn't that good. In Spiders' Game, Tarantulas did more damage than Megatron did to Tigatron.

Come TM time, and both are now transmetals. Megatron is again at a loss simply because his weaponry isn't rapid-fire like Primal's. BUT things are starting to even up. Megatron can now fly, for instance.

Last upgrade and we have Optimal vs. Dragon. We've all seen the results of those fights.

What I'm saying is that it is true. Optimus had the lead for awhile. But as the series progressed, his advantage became slimmer and slimmer. Finally he HAD no advantage.

Then the series ended to make way for Beast Machines where yet again, the scoreboard was wiped clean. Say what you will about the quality of the show, but it still counts as a clean slate for both Optimus and Megatron in their battles. And with the short times they fought, Optimus still defeated Megatron. Megatron did dominate the majority of the second fight with the Optimal body he stole but Optimus still took him down, even if it was by having cheesy speeches from the Oracle and his friends uplift his spirits.

[SilverfromOZ]

Nice work guys. This is exactly what I was looking forward to with this thread. I am taking a step back because I don't want my views to influence the results, but needless to say I am very impressed. I have noticed a few references that would fit nicely into the Beast Wars Laws of Physics. Please feel free to make additions to this list. I'm sure we can get a whole lot more than are already there.

viewtopic.php?t=640

[VelociBerg]

And like I said before, a risky desperate last-ditch attempt to destroy your enemy is still just that... a desperate last-ditch attempt

Fine, we're in agreement that both Optimus and Megatron have done such things then.

To be fair, we have to take into consideration that the Beast Wars had just began in this short time-span in only two episodes. To me, it seemed like Megatron just took whatever troops he could on Cybertron for his mission without any consideration as to their loyalty.

They're Predacons. Loyalty doesn't exist in their vocabulary unless your name is Inferno. Megatron himself is a rebel against the Tripredicus Council.

We don't know for certain if Megatron knew for sure that half his troops at this time were treacherous and untrustworthy(Tarantulas and Terrorsaur).

but as for the treachery thing? He may not have known it at that time.

He always suspected he had a mole in his organization, remember?

Maybe the incompetents part Megatron was well aware of from the beginning

Listen and watch Waspinator for five minutes and you know something's wrong...

Several of the guy's friends just died coupled with the threat of a big looming warship. Wouldn't you be as desperate as that if you were in his shoes?

But my point is still there. Optimus can, and does sometimes pull the same blind stunts as Megatron.

Fair enough. But plot device or not, it still doesn't change the fact that Optimus beat Megatron squarely.

I believe I've already said that Optimus won. The episode is an entirely different matter.

Have you considered that TMII Dinobot taking out Optimus might've just been a plot device as well?

Possibly, but Transmetal 2 technology was at its peak and Optimus was in beast mode. Which might explain why he hardly ever used it.

I mean seriously... with every intro episode, new characters can perform amazing feats that they couldn't do in a normal episodes, from taking out heavy hitters to dozens of Preds without so much as a scratch.

This argument is not true for every character. I seem to recall Inferno getting blown up in his intro, Quickstrike stayed the same ever since Coming of the Fuzors, Silverbolt was constantly being shot down, Tigerhawk still has his Vok-given abilities and Depth Charge has always shown that he can at least hold his own with Rampage.

Granted, there were a lot of those. But I'm also taking into account the magnitude of defeats Megatron suffered to Optimus on a purely PHYSICAL battle. Let's see, Optimus beat Megs pretty squarely in BW PT 2,

I wouldn't call it squarely, but I'll give it to you for the sake of argument.

Call of the Wild, Other Visits Pt 2,

This is fair enough, since I don't feel like arguing for Call of the Wild again.

and Optimal Situation.

Just like Dinobot 2 not fighting back against Megatron, this is a similar situation. Megatron chose to forego fighting, and gave the order to destroy the Axalon. Which ironically, Optimus assisted with thanks to his protective, missile-reflective coating!

...small joke about an earlier sarcastic post I made...moving on.

Besides, Optimus had a shiny new upgrade, and was the largest bot in the entire Beast Wars. Megatron, Cheetor, and any other TM was rendered obselete with that upgrade until the advent of the TM2. This is like the Megatron getting beat by a standard transformer argument, in reverse.

Megatron had Optimus down in what... only two episodes?

And the most important point, both those episodes were Megs' latest upgrade, meaning Primal was out of luck. To be more precise, counting Optimal Situation, Optimus had 4 wins vs. Megatron's 2 wins. Those two wins happened to be the last matches of the series, and showed that Optimus was finally out-classed by Megatron, though it took him over 2 and a half seasons to achieve.

Yeah, Megatron did crush Optimus in the final episode but what if Beast Wars had continued with Nemesis Pt II not really being a final episode? There's certainly a large chance Optimus would continue to defeat Megatron most of the time on the battlefield(with a few losses in fair fights here and there).

Judging by how Dragon Megatron tended to defeat Optimal Optimus each time they entered the ring, I'd say Megatron would win a few more times, evening the scoreboard, and then Optimus would get a spazzy new upgrade just like he does at the start of every season--starting the cycle again. This upgrade would probably be something like the Armada toys, and he'd have mutliple Maximals join up with him to create some kind of MegaZord type of bot. (That last bit was a joke.)

Don't get me wrong. I don't like Beast Machines either.

Who in their right mind does?

Would you honestly rather me go to fanfiction.net and search up some uber-OOC fic to reference?

If you had done such a thing, I would say something to the effect that it was just an uber-OOC reference and point out it was fanfiction.

Maybe they are weaker, maybe they're not. Optimus still beat Megatron in both dragon and Optimal mode in the end. Granted his final victory over Megatron was really corny but it still counts as a victory nonetheless.

I honestly think one reason people assume techno-organics are weaker is the fact that people just don't LIKE Beast Machines. Besides, techno-organic Optimus took out Megs' beast mode--something Optimal Optimus sure couldn't do in Nemesis. And just to get it out of the way with, yes, Optimus won. Megatron was pathetic in Beast Machines, everyone was awful, in fact the entire show was awful. One reason I don't like arguing about it. Interesting concept, but flawed execution.

Then the series ended to make way for Beast Machines where yet again, the scoreboard was wiped clean.

Actually, I believe Megs suffered a downgrade:




Looks to me like he's in serious disrepair. Probably hasn't seen a CR Tank since leaving Earth. Trying to pry his beast mode out certainly didn't help his power, and neither did modifying himself to become puppeteer of Cybertron.

What was the point, you ask? Actually helping you in your argument that in Beast Machines--Megatron was a loser. Though I give him credit for fighting ever onwards.

Say what you will about the quality of the show,

You really don't want me to do that. *waves hand in Jedi fashion*
That isn't the sentence you were looking for.

Megatron did dominate the majority of the second fight with the Optimal body he stole but Optimus still took him down, even if it was by having cheesy speeches from the Oracle and his friends uplift his spirits.

Except this last fight between the two ended with a desperate last-ditch attempt on Primal's part. So now we've come full circle. And please don't bring up the cheesy speeches. It's horrifying.

Nice work guys. This is exactly what I was looking forward to with this thread.

Two people arguing over the merits of Optimus Primal vs. Megatron?

[SilverfromOZ]

Hell two people arguing over ANYTHING BW related is fine by me.

Dance puppets dance!!! I mean... uhhh.. yay Beast Wars

[EverBlue]

He always suspected he had a mole in his organization, remember?

That is true. But it doesn't necessarily mean he knew who the mole was. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion but I'm one of those people who believe that before getting Earth, Megatron never really got to know his troops all that well, aside from Dinobot. He may have had some indication that his troops were slightly ignorant and not the most trustworthy guys around but only on prehistoric Earth, did he REALLY start to get to know his men. Although with some of them, it's easier to tell who's more incompetent(ie. Waspinator).

Judging by how Dragon Megatron tended to defeat Optimal Optimus each time they entered the ring, I'd say Megatron would win a few more times, evening the scoreboard, and then Optimus would get a spazzy new upgrade just like he does at the start of every season--starting the cycle again. This upgrade would probably be something like the Armada toys, and he'd have mutliple Maximals join up with him to create some kind of MegaZord type of bot. (That last bit was a joke.)

Dragon Megs had the spark of the original Megatron with him when he did that. And let's be honest here. Him possessing G1 Megatron's device is in itself also a plot device. I mean, we all know that in the end, the original G1 Megatron's spark is going to have to be returned to the host so that history can unfold. Megatron whooped Optimus pretty good in this state but at some point, he was going to lose the spark. None of us here seriously believed for a second that he was going to keep it for an extended period of time. The same applies to Optimus. At some point, Megatron was going to have to lose the spark and after that, he'd be on equal or not-so-equal footings again with Optimus. And since you pointed out that Hasbro would just demand more upgrades and toys, I have this eerie feeling that you're completely correct, knowing their way of always trying to stick their noses in the show...

Except this last fight between the two ended with a desperate last-ditch attempt on Primal's part. So now we've come full circle. And please don't bring up the cheesy speeches. It's horrifying.

Yup, but this time, Primal's last-ditch attempt worked and he took Megatron with him for a dive. And um, yeah... the cheesy speeches... and corny ending... blech. You get no argument from me there. Now that you mention it, maybe it wasn't such a good thing for Optimus to have won this battle.

Who in their right mind does?

I know what I'm about to say sounds a little unbelievable but... bear with me now. I've scoured the internet before and I have indeed found some very well-spoken, articulate people who like Beast Machines. After the popular run of Beast Wars and the way BM went down as a show, it doesn't seem like the show would have many fans. Plus, I think after how shows like Armada and Energon went down, Beast Machines has gotten a slightly more positive reception in recent times. Now, the newfound positive reception is still nowhere near universal amongst Beast Wars fans and I, myself, am most certainly not one of those people who have found a new yearning for Beast Machines... but believe it or not, people in their right minds do like Beast Machines. Scary, ain't it?

[VelociBerg]

That is true. But it doesn't necessarily mean he knew who the mole was. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion but I'm one of those people who believe that before getting Earth, Megatron never really got to know his troops all that well, aside from Dinobot. He may have had some indication that his troops were slightly ignorant and not the most trustworthy guys around but only on prehistoric Earth, did he REALLY start to get to know his men. Although with some of them, it's easier to tell who's more incompetent(ie. Waspinator).

I agree.

Dragon Megs had the spark of the original Megatron with him when he did that. And let's be honest here. Him possessing G1 Megatron's device is in itself also a plot device. I mean, we all know that in the end, the original G1 Megatron's spark is going to have to be returned to the host so that history can unfold. Megatron whooped Optimus pretty good in this state but at some point, he was going to lose the spark. None of us here seriously believed for a second that he was going to keep it for an extended period of time. The same applies to Optimus. At some point, Megatron was going to have to lose the spark and after that, he'd be on equal or not-so-equal footings again with Optimus.

He had over 4 million years before the G1 Megatron spark would be required. Seems like plenty of time to me.

And since you pointed out that Hasbro would just demand more upgrades and toys, I have this eerie feeling that you're completely correct, knowing their way of always trying to stick their noses in the show...

And now I'm going to have nightmares.

I know what I'm about to say sounds a little unbelievable but... bear with me now. I've scoured the internet before and I have indeed found some very well-spoken, articulate people who like Beast Machines.

*Stops to let information digest before reading on*

Scary, ain't it?

VERY scary. In fact, I was on the verge of declaring the show to be okay, very subpar, but okay...until I saw "In Darkest Knight". Silverbolt being...deformed like that is evil. THE VERY BLACKEST OF EVIL.

[SilverfromOZ]

I believe that Beast Machines is an awesome series but not a worthy successor to Beast Wars. I love the darker concepts that it brought to the fore (such as the Jetstorm/Tankor thing) because it was an element that makes Transformers "grow-up" as a sci-fi series. I think the key issue with Beast Machines (aside from taking the Beast Wars plot, tying it to a chair, sticking a rubber gag in its mouth, pushing it down a flight of stairs where the opening to a meat grinder awaited it) was the loss of humor. You can have a really series brilliant sci-fi, but without humor it loses its soul. Take Babylon 5. Huge planetary drama, races being exterminated but you just have to laugh at the little antics of the characters involved (J'kar and Londo rock). As Garry explained, the series felt like a divorce, what with all the petty antics and bickering between the characters. I think we would have enjoyed the series if we hadn't known anything about the character's histories (but Beast Wars rocked so that isn't an option).

Now about the things that were done right:
1) The aforementioned Dark sparks. Brilliant. Anyone can fall from grace even Rhinox "the best of us". Personally I enjoyed Jetstorm as the cocky fly-boy and its good because there is always that element within every shining knight.

2) G1 references. The Key to Vector Sigma, Optimus statues and holograms. Always a groovy thing.

3) Megatron WON!!! (At least he kind of did. Its the most power any Megatron has ever had (complete planetary dominance is not something to be scoffed at)).

4) The CG was super shiny.

5) Cheetor's development was something that I think most people agree was a good thing. It somewhat better than "Hey, Cheetz, I'm handing the Matrix to Rhinox, then when he gets blown up and the bad guy takes it, you punch the bad guy and then you're it. Have fun." The coming of age story is quite good in this case.

6) The Optimus vs (Optimal) Megatron fight was AWESOME!! Let me repeat that AWESOME!!! It was everything that I expected the Smith vs Neo fight in the Matrix to be (for which I was sorely disappointed).

7) Megatron in a service bot's body (tee hee).

The Noble/Savage element.

9) The fact that Cybertron runs on Windows and needs the occasional reformat

So yes. ITs not Beast Wars. But they took a chance. They took a chance with Beast Wars too. Remember that Transformers were always robots in vehicular disguise (sans a few mechanoid animals I suppose) and there was no way to know if the series would be any good. Risk is part of it, and I figure that in light of series like Armada/RID/Energon and Cybertron, we can at least be thankful for another CG Transformers series which had some creative writing and input from the voice actors. I nearly vomited uncontrollably when I started watching the Armada series after BW, however it too eventually grew on me. I need my giant fighting robot fix so I'll take it in whatever form is available. With any luck, the new movie may start another trend of fully CG series. Who knows? So yeah, thats my rant for the day. I may not be online again soon, so I'll wish everyone a happy and safe new years.

[VelociBerg]

Just because I hate it with a passion doesn't mean I hate every aspect of it, just to let ya'll know. For instance:

I believe that Beast Machines is an awesome series but not a worthy successor to Beast Wars. I love the darker concepts that it brought to the fore (such as the Jetstorm/Tankor thing) because it was an element that makes Transformers "grow-up" as a sci-fi series.

Definitely. Its nice bringing Transformers up-to-date with other series.

I think the key issue with Beast Machines...was the loss of humor.

...I KNEW something was missing.

As Garry explained, the series felt like a divorce, what with all the petty antics and bickering between the characters.

Especially since many of these characters have rarely had (major) squabbles in the past.

The only thing I still dislike is that the goal for the Maximals stayed the same throughout two seasons--cleaning up Megatron's version of Cybertron. I, for one, think it would've been interesting to have Cybertron come under attack by some other alien force (not the Vok though), just to give Megs a break as lead villain after five seasons.

Now about the things that were done right:

5) Cheetor's development was something that I think most people agree was a good thing. It somewhat better than "Hey, Cheetz, I'm handing the Matrix to Rhinox, then when he gets blown up and the bad guy takes it, you punch the bad guy and then you're it. Have fun." The coming of age story is quite good in this case.

Definitely the best part of the series. The Dark Sparks too.

So yes. ITs not Beast Wars. But they took a chance. They took a chance with Beast Wars too. Remember that Transformers were always robots in vehicular disguise (sans a few mechanoid animals I suppose) and there was no way to know if the series would be any good.

But the risk level was different. With BW they had entirely new characters playing as the descendants of the two factions we've come to love and hate--the Autobots and Decepticons. Because the characters are new, they have breathing room (save for those direct descendants like Primal, and even then they were able to make him stand apart from Prime) and are able to move freely. Other Transformers shows can't do this because many personalities like Starscream and Optimus Prime are already burned into people's minds.

Beast Machines completely rewrote major character personalities (Its like they divided Dinobot between Cheetor and Silverbolt, giving Cheetor his warrior and leadership skills, and Silverbolt his rage) and designs. This is all without any prior explanation until a few episodes down the road. At least with BW you can really figure out what's what in terms of basic plot from the beginning.

BM has grown on me slightly, but it still lacks the punch BW had.

[SilverfromOZ]

Agreed. However it has grown a bit more on me (I acutally do enjoy it) because I a creature of stimulus. I crave new experiences and don't get me wrong I still love Beast Wars, but given the choice between say R.I.D. or Armada and Beast Machines, its BM all the way. I enjoy Cybertron (even though it is still dubbed, it has VERY cool transformations ).

OK back to the true point of the thread (I'll start up a BM debate at a later date).

4. Who can be craftier Tarantulas or Rattrap (feel free to add other characters to this list if you feel its appropriate but leave Megs and Optimus out because they are crafty leaders as is)?